STEVE RUDDOCK (00:00:01): You are listening to The Talking Shop podcast. Today’s guest is Victor Rocha, the publisher of Pechanga.net and the chair of the Indian Gaming Association Trade Show. Victor, good to see you.
VICTOR ROCHA (00:00:14): Good morning.
STEVE RUDDOCK (00:00:15): Why don’t we start off with how you got into this crazy world of gambling?
VICTOR ROCHA (00:00:22): Well, you know what? My story, I think a lot of other people is purely accidental. I think probably like most Native Americans, I think in the industry at this point. I was a musician playing guitar when I started playing when I was about 13 years old, and that’s all I ever wanted to do. I come from a certain generation where playing guitar and dealing drugs was considered, you could put that on your tax reform, on your tax papers when you’re in from the seventies and stuff like that. And I wanted to be a musician. And right out of high school, I started working at a recording studio instead of going to college. And I was committed a hundred percent. And you know what? I got really lucky that two guys who owned the little studio I worked at were brilliant. And I fell into this environment of music and literature and movies and music and just incredible, incredible mentors. As a matter of fact, one of ‘em got a letter of arts from France, actually. I went to the French Embassy and he got the little medal and all that stuff for his work. So I fell into people who were dreamers and got really, had a phenomenal time, didn’t make any money, was young, thin, and broke. But I was very earnest.
(00:01:57): And I think a lot of people in the nineties came in. You know what? For us at least a lot of Native Americans is the narrative for us has always been one of loss and tragedy and all those other things that you could make terrible movies. But then gaming happened. The prospect of it was happening with smaller bingo casinos and stuff like that. And when the state of California tried to shut down the little tribes, they took it already to the Supreme Court in Cabazon versus California. And the Supreme Court said, if the states have gambling, the tribes have gambling. So the tribes were going to get into gambling if they had that opportunity. Now, I had no interest in gambling in the eighties or the early nineties whatsoever. My tribe opened up a small casino. The Pechanga band of Indians opened up a small casino in Temecula, California.
(00:02:58): At that point. There was Cabazon, there was Morongo, there was San Manuel, but they were all little bingo halls, maybe Morongo and San Manuel had little bigger, larger bingo halls. So we opened up a tiny little modular casino where it was dark and low ceilings and cigarette smoke. And in the beginning, the way the tribes flex their sovereignty was like, not only do we have gaming, but you can smoke here and everybody could smoke. And there was these nasty smelling environments. And like I said before, it was the most beautiful thing I’ve ever seen. You know what I mean? Because it was the glimmer of hope on the horizon that things were going to change. That you have something that is going to give you the economic wings to lift yourself and elevate yourself from. And that’s exactly what it did. So from 95, 96, we were just trying to learn how to operate our casinos.
(00:04:01): And we were one of the small casinos that didn’t use Las Vegas or consultants and stuff like that. We did it all ourselves. So we did that. And Pete Wilson and the guys in California and Las Vegas didn’t like the fact that the tribes wrote up casinos. So the next thing you know, we’re being challenged by the political system in California. And for the first of many battles, we were underestimated. You know what I mean? So that was 98. Listen, we were tiny. We were opening up these tiny little casinos, and the whole entire world came down on us. You know what I mean? It was scary, and it was so funny. The things we didn’t know, the things that we did know and we were, was that the people of California would trust us and they would listen to us. And that was the message that we got out there to the people of California.
(00:04:56): We’re like, listen, we have an opportunity here to pull ourselves up, by our own bootstraps. And it was an incredible message that resonated across California. We ended up winning with 63% of the vote. And then that started my journey. And by the way, while we’re in the middle of all this, my cousin became the spokesman of the initiative, the ballot initiative, and it was really amazing. All of a sudden, my cousin was on television and I was like, oh my God, I got to do something to help him. And I bought a little compact computer, C-O-M-P-A-Q with, oh God, it was horrible. It was dial up modems and CRT monitors, and if your computer crashed, you lost everything. You know what I mean? Those were the days. And so I went to the internet. It was still the nineties, AOL where they were giving AOL just to everybody and trying to push this version of the internet.
(00:06:03): And I went to the internet and I was like, I need to find out more information. And so I saw the internet as a way to find the truth, the way to find information and news, and everybody was just putting it out there. And so I started gathering this information and giving it to the tribes. And at the time I was doing it, it was email, and it wasn’t even email digest one at a time. So if people went out to lunch, missed a day of your email, you’d come back and there’d be a hundred emails inside your inbox. So when we won the campaign on November 4th, someone came up to me and they said at the camp when we were at the election, we had just won. It was a big victory. It was an earthquake type of victory that it’s still reverberating across the country and the world.
(00:06:56): And someone came up to me and they said, you know what? Thank you so much. You did a great job of keeping us informed. You can stop now. I was like, stop. What? He goes, stop sending me emails. Are you joking? They’re like, yeah, we won. It’s over. And I was like, no, it’s just started, man. And so the very next day I went online, I had all these articles and I said, you know what? If I can’t, I take you to water. It can’t make you think. You know what I mean? Then I will create a website and you guys could come here. And I used the, at that time when you got internet service, they gave you a personalized homepage. And I started putting all my links into this homepage and it crashed the first hour, then it was crashed the next day, and it crashed because I was at, it wasn’t available to the public, it was just to leadership.
(00:07:45): So I was feeding them all the information, even during the Prop one A, which was we won the election in 1998. Las Vegas challenged, it said it violated the constitution. And we said, well, we’ll just change the Constitution, won’t we? But then it was a regime change in California. All the Republicans have been wiped out of the California legislature. And by the way, they’ve never been the same ever since. I mean, Pete Wilson really did a number on the Republican Party in California, and we came in that bubble of hate that they were pushing on. And here we were, people of color saying, give us a chance. And so that’s what happened. The people just wiped those guys off the planet and the legislatures, all of a sudden, all the people in California legislatures come back to the table, we’ll negotiate a better deal with you.
(00:08:41): And listen, we knew nothing. We were so naive and so Pollyanna about this, and we thought politicians actually knew what they were doing, but we ended up getting a really good deal with Pete Wilson. He got knocked out. So anyhow, that’s when I went to the internet, which happened to be November 5th, 1998, which I believe is, remember the December? Yeah, the guy Fox Day. Yeah. So I know that’s a long convoluted story, but you know what I did? I just joined in to try to help. I always say that I manned the ramparts and I found out I had a gift for the battle. So that’s what I was doing. I found out that the internet is a way to keep the tribes before me. There was nobody doing what I did. There was nobody uniting the tribes with the same information on the same day at the same time, so they could figure out which way the threat was coming and so everybody could be ready. And so that’s been my role for the last going on 26 years I think. So that’s been my role and being a fighter and being in there and using information to shove it down people’s throats and choke ‘em with the truth. So
STEVE RUDDOCK (00:10:05): It’s funny how many musicians I’ve run into in this space. I feel like there’s almost something where to be a good musician takes a lot of dedication and hardware. You overwork,
VICTOR ROCHA (00:10:17): It’s the math, it’s the math,
STEVE RUDDOCK (00:10:19): It’s all the work, it’s the math, and then there’s also the creativity to it. So you have to be able to see things. And so I feel like a lot of people in the gambling space kind of have those traits of not just hard work, but also a little bit of creativity that lets you see things that before they happen.
VICTOR ROCHA (00:10:38): We’ve had a jam session before with musicians, and it was horrible, but it was still great. You know what I mean? It was fun. And they did it. They had an open bar. The only reason we had a crowd is they had an open bar, and it was a true jazz session where nobody had learned any of the songs and it was horrible. It was terrible. But your point is, yeah, there are a lot of great musicians. The former keyboard player from the band Angel from the seventies, he’s a game designer and one of the keyboard players for Todd Re’s Utopia is also a sound designer. There’s other musicians and stuff like that. So yeah, there’s a lot of us out there. And as a matter of fact, we had a tribal band Pachanga when we opened our casino. I had a 20 year gig at my casino. So that’s what validated my guitar collection was that second Thursday of every month we played. And I always say, when you reach a certain age and you’re playing rock and roll, it’s hard to not look like a midlife crisis. So we left, moved from rock and roll. Like most musicians, you matriculate to jazz. And so we matriculate r and b and stuff like that. And so occasionally we’ll do, we don’t do any Led Zeppelin. That’s the one that’s hard to pull off when you’re a man of a certain age.
STEVE RUDDOCK (00:11:58): So my dad kind of had a similar trajectory with music, right? Wanted to be a rock and roll band the whole time. As he got older, he went into blues and then it slide guitar and it was all into, it just very much changed over the years.
VICTOR ROCHA (00:12:14): You know what? There’s a real beauty in music. It’s good for the brain, it’s good for your dexterity, it’s good for your heart, it’s good for your soul. The beautiful thing now is that I play for myself. I don’t have to play in clubs or have any type of validation. It’s something that I do purely for myself. It’s something that I love and something that’s been in my heart. I was born in the age of the Beatles man. You know what I mean? So my earliest memories were the Beatles and the Stones and all this incredible sixties music as a child. So I mean, why wouldn’t I be a musician? Why aren’t more people musicians? And unfortunately the youth of today are tiktoks, but me and a bunch of families are buying tickets next week for Coachella next year, even though I haven’t been in a long time. But we’re going back to take it back. Yeah, it’s going to be an assault on Coachella. We’re going to take it back.
STEVE RUDDOCK (00:13:12): So both my sons are in high school, and it’s funny how much they’re into, they like their rap and that stuff, but the classical rock is really popular with the younger crowd, I think, because it’s so, I always say that it’s so well curated. We’ve already listened to it, so we know. No, no, don’t listen to that song. Listen to this one.
VICTOR ROCHA (00:13:39): I have an 8-year-old and it’s in all the movies and it’s everywhere that you listen to. It’s in television. My kid, I played a song last night in the car, I played a roundabout where I rush and he goes, that’s a meme song. So everybody wants to rule the world by tears for fears. That’s a meme song. So that’s how my kid hears him. But I think a lot of it is just, yeah, you’re right, it’s curated. All the good stuff is now floating on top to harvest, and there’s a lot of great music. And we also live in a generation where music is, and as a musician, and even music as a listener was almost a secret society. You had to know somebody in the seventies and even the eighties to get the really good stuff. Who’s skinny puppy, you know what I mean? I dunno who they are. And years later, you realize how influential bands like this are. But I think that’s the beauty of the modern times is they have access to all this incredible music.
STEVE RUDDOCK (00:14:40): Yeah, well, what are the deep cuts, right? That’s what they call ‘em now. The 12th song on the album that never gets any radio play.
VICTOR ROCHA (00:14:47): I was that kid. I used to read the album. I used to get the album covers and read ‘em like they were the Torah. The meaning of life was in the back of this album somehow. And so it was pretty easy for me to get into recording. I saw people going to college and I was like, you know what? I want to make music. I want to be in this environment. I made my first record with my little high school band at 17 years old, and when I walked in the first studio, I was like, this is what I want to do. This is what I want to be. And again, for me, my path was really fortunate, falling in with brilliant people in a learning environment, talented people. So I think when you’re in that type of environment, you want to be that. Also you’ve learned to be fearless. Anything is possible as long as you put in the hard work.
STEVE RUDDOCK (00:15:36): If we go back to November 5th, 1998, let’s see, I was probably, I may have been playing poker at Fox was I might’ve been. That’s right about when I got into poker. So after you guys won, could you even envision what came down the road?
VICTOR ROCHA (00:15:58): You know what? That’s funny you mentioned Foxwoods because when I started batanga.net, and it was funny was that I started it because I was trying to help. You know what I mean? And it wasn’t until I started in November and I think December all of a sudden I realized what it was that I had and I had that eureka moment. I was like, oh my God, I’ve created this resource created. And I started jumping up and down. I knew this is stupid, but I always knew I had a million dollar idea in my head and it wasn’t sleeping on my dad’s couch and it wasn’t smoking ragweed from the seventies. You know what I mean? So I always knew I had, my wife and I were talking about this the other day, which is when you’re talented and you’re smart and you’re not reaching your potential, you know what I mean?
(00:16:52): It really took gaming for me to stand up and be the person that I was always going to be. I think music was a great way to avoid being an adult. I think that was probably my real goal there was to avoid having a job. But once I started chuga.net and I realized what I’d created and the value, I used to keep a picture of Foxwoods above my computer, I was like, we didn’t know how successful we could be until we saw Foxwoods. We didn’t look at Hard Rock. We didn’t know we could be that successful until we saw Hard Rock. So a lot of it is seeing what your peers are doing. And you know what? That’s my role is to share that information. And we had an idea. We didn’t know it would be this big. We’ve had some, if you go back to 98, you look at the fight that was Vegas, that was wind, that was the guys over at Mandalay Bay, that was stations, that was all those guys in Vegas at the time who were all old school. OV was one of our mortal enemies. That guy wouldn’t give us the time of day.
(00:18:09): We were never supposed to be this successful. They did everything they can to try to smother us in the crib. So if it wasn’t in Las Vegas and it was Washington DC and what was interesting to me, we learned right away that Republicans and Democrats are going to come after you. One of the things that Pete Wilson did was that he really opened our eyes. I mean, at one point we were fighting and we were very naive. Like I said, I used the word Pollyanna earlier, and I think that’s a really good description of how I was for sure. We thought, oh my God, we’re fighting the Republicans and the Democrats are going to come and save us. And Pete Wilson says, you know what? People, not only are they building casinos, but they’re building it without union labor. Next thing you know, we’re fighting Democrats and Republicans on both sides, but you could see who we spoke with truth.
(00:19:01): And I think that really resonated. And for the people who were listening to us, they’re like, you know what? I believe them not win. Or these guys saying, those greedy Indians are going to get rich. And all of a sudden it was supposed to be bad thing that we were not poor anymore. It’s a bad thing to pull ourselves out of poverty. And so we’re out of the gate. To kick all that Vegas ass was really quite an accomplishment, and it really proved to ourselves that we could do anything that if we could take these guys and these guys were the king of the world at the time, and we whoop their ass because first of all, they were dipping their toe into California trying to control what California is. They saw us just as they drive in and that’s it. They were kings of the industry and we were the less than.
(00:19:53): You know what I mean? They love us when we’re on the side of the road selling jewelry and poor. They hate us when we’re their neighbors. You know what I mean? So beating them was a big deal. Beating the Republican Party in California was a big deal. Then all of a sudden, it was funny, I remember the 2000 Democratic Convention was in Los Angeles, and I got invited and this was a big deal. I mean, all of a sudden the Democrats were there, and it was funny. I really learned to be cynical about the system. I remember the Democrats were like going, oh, you guys are great. All that money you have, my God, you’re handsome and thin and all this stuff. And then they would push a Kennedy in the room. All of a sudden we were supposed to genuflect and open our wallets and stuff.
(00:20:34): So it was very cynical from the very beginning, everyone. I went to another one and Carl Rove gave me an award for raising $5 million at nine 11 for chuga.net. So everybody saw the tribes and they saw that money. That’s where the Jack Abramoff thing came. So the very beginning, in the early two thousands, as we were trying to get on our feet, people were coming in and trying to throw us off balance. We’re going to show you guys how to do it. You guys are great, blah, blah, blah. And like I said earlier, pga, my tribe did it on its own. All the mistakes we made were ours. All the success we have is ours. We are one of the tribes that decided to do it on their own, and which is Harris came in and they’ve done a phenomenal job for recon. They’ve been in business with these guys for 25 years, 24 years now, and there’s a reason for that.
(00:21:27): Stations got booted out the first five years, five years from great and great, couldn’t wait to get those guys out. So they learned to love the Indian, you know what I mean? The industry learned to London, but that didn’t stop us every step of the way. Then poker stars came in here in the two thousands and they tried the same thing. They’re going to come in off is great, we’re going to show you guys how to do it. We’re the greatest in the world. That imploded, but that was another victory in our hat. And then it kind of brings us up to where the sports betting guys are, where now you have these guys coming in saying, Hey, listen, we’re going to show you guys how to do it. And they were a little more cautious, but a lot more cynical. You know what I mean?
(00:22:18): And once the tribe said, Nope, we’re going to do it ourselves. We don’t need you to help. They’re going, well, we’re going to help you. The tribes go, Nope, don’t come in. Go F yourself. Go away. They came in big strong arm, thought they were going to come in, and they got their ass handed as predicted. As a matter of fact, at my last show, which was two weeks ago, Alex Pratt from Clarion gave me a shirt of my quote in the Washington Post. Can I cuss here? Can I drop the echo? Yeah, go for it. Yeah. So I was in the Washington Post a week before the campaign. They asked me about what I’ve thought of it, and I said, basically when you come to, everybody knows when you come to California, you don’t stare into the sun. You look both ways for crossing the street so you don’t fuck with the California tribes. So now I have that on a T-shirt, and I suspect that will be on my tombstone. Yeah, sorry about, there’s a lot there.
STEVE RUDDOCK (00:23:11): So the poker stars situation, that’s about when we first came into contact, or you probably thought I was an idiot at the time, and I was, because I think I was the same as when you started. I was very pollyannish about how things worked and you took people at their word and in politics, I think that’s one of the biggest mistakes. I think it’s one of the bigger mistakes people still make in this industry is I always look for the little non-sequitur word that there’s always thrown into a politician statement is how do you feel about this? Bill’s chances, and I’m positive something might get done. There’s always that might, that little caveat that allows them to not lose any face.
VICTOR ROCHA (00:24:00): Well, listen, laws are too important to be left to politicians. You know what I mean? A lot of these guys are here for a while, and then they’re gone and they’re looking for their next gig at they get out the door, and how many of them have become consultants? And so that was a long time ago. I read an article once, it was about Frank Baum El Frank Baum was the guy who wrote the Wizard of Oz Children book, great book. Well, El Frank Baum. Also you owned a newspaper in South Dakota and Aberdeen, South Dakota. And as the editor, he would write stories and editorials that saying, the Indians need to be wiped off the face of the planet. We will not have in America until they are dealt with. The Indian problem is dealt with. And I remember reading this and just realizing that the media is a voice for the system.
(00:24:57): You know what I mean? So that’s where the internet was. The great equalizer is that it took that power away from the old guard, the old media guys, and gave it to people like me and you, you know what I mean? Which allowed us to have a voice. And now to find the truth, I’ll tell you what I didn’t expect was I thought when I remember when I first went to the internet, it felt like somebody left the window open to the Library of Congress and all this information was there for me. And I’m an autodidact, I’m an information animal. I just love reading and absorbing, and that seems to be my gift as information. But what I didn’t expect was that the internet would turn into this cesspool of misinformation. So I think people like you and I become more important in all this, that people learn that they can trust us, that we have gone out of our way to prove that we are honorable and that we’re trying to find the truth so we can all move forward together and have a better understanding of each other in our positions. And so I think that’s one of the great equalizers and what the internet has really brought about. And for me, it’s been a life changer.
STEVE RUDDOCK (00:26:07): When I first started covering California, my thinking was, well, this is good. Legalization is, I’m a legalization regulation person. I don’t care what it is. Pretty much that’s how I would go with it. If it already exists, we should legalize it and regulate it. And I was always like, oh, tribes are being very obstructionist, very obstructionist. And now when I go back, it is funny, when people talk to me now and they say the same things that I was saying in 2015, I say, no, you don’t understand. There’s more to it than just the legalization of this. And I think that was like, it’s something you only gain with experience in this industry.
VICTOR ROCHA (00:26:53): The big class that I see is a really is a fundamental mentality, a foundational mentality, which is the industry is driven by this MBA business mentality. Next quarter drive it. I mean, we are all geniuses like Amazon, red, fast, break it, blah, blah, blah. And the tribes are slow down. We’ll get this right and get it done, do it once. And that’s where the real clash comes. And the tribes in California are holding the ground and they’re holding the ground for the foreseeable future. But that’s where that comes from. You know what I mean? It’s like we’re not Pollyanna anymore. We just understand that for this to be sustainable, and you know what? You can already see it in the nonsense of the sports betting industry already. I think it’s gone a lot quicker to toxic than it did in the uk. It took a lot longer in the UK to get toxic, but in America it got toxic, what?
(00:27:52): Four or five years? It’s really bad right now. So the industry I think isn’t capable of really policing itself. They get a good lip service, but it’s exactly what it is. They create another group to take the flack off of them. You know what I mean? We’re going to start another group for left-handed gambling children to make sure that, and they do this again and again. It’s very political, you know what I mean? We’ll create another talking group and stuff like that, but I think they have a real problem. You know what I mean? I saw, what was the article they had the other day of Kelsey Travis or one of the trailer Swift’s boyfriend tells you how much I don’t watch sports. He said, what? 60 70% of the players in the football thing, the earth is flat. You know what I mean? And so these guys are going to be, they’re not going to gamble on themselves.
(00:28:45): These guys are hyped up and stuff. So the industry’s got a real problem, man. And you know what? It’s just going to get worse. It’s just going to get worse. And then the politicians are going to get on, you know what I mean? They’re going to come back because some kid is going to spend his dad’s mortgage on the rent. And people worry about that. That’s definitely the children angle is a real big issue. And I think the industry is really giving us lip service, and yet we are watching it disintegrate. All the goodwill that they’ve built up is just going right out the window. So it’s going to be a matter of time before the legislators get involved too.
STEVE RUDDOCK (00:29:24): A lot of people are very bearish on federal action of any sort, but it’s like this is the exact type of thing that the feds go. It’s such easy fruit to pick. You’re never going to look bad by reigning and advertising. There’s all these things and just experience through the industry. So 25 years for me, you see it, you see the same patterns over and over and they just keep repeating,
VICTOR ROCHA (00:29:48): Listen, we’re doing it for the kids, it’s for the education for the kids. That’s always my favorite cliche. And the fact that they still use it. I think gaming is the, I think we come to the point where you can say, yes, I do gambling, and it has benefits to society and the community when it’s properly regulated and taken care of, it creates a positive impact in the community. And for me, I have to look at from my eyeballs, which is through the Native American tribal gaming aspect, and I see what it’s created in Temecula and other small communities and stuff like that. The sports betting guys have a real problem. You know what I mean? When was the last time you saw a firetruck donated to a local community from Fando or DraftKings? When was the last time you saw? They just don’t do it.
(00:30:36): Now they have the lobbyists. I mean, in California you’ll see it now because FanDuel is here spending a lot of money to try to win good favor with the tribes. I expect the rest of the guys coming in yet. And listen, it’s still unknown. The only thing we know for a fact is that the tribes will squash it. And I think what the industry needs to understand is that it’s easy to pull the plug on this thing. It’s easy to say no with the people of California. Going back to what you just said, gambling makes a good boogeyman. And lemme tell you for campaigns, they’re phenomenal. There was a campaign where the tribes are getting the sports spending. They were going use the jersey accent, and they used a Massachusetts accent, and they was like, they’re coming to California. Once we posted the first Californias, they’re like, oh, disgusting. You know what I mean? Those barbaric accents, which by the way, I’m an honoree, New Jersey. I used to live in Jersey, so I love Jersey and I love that attitude. Everybody thinks I’m from Jersey because in my heart I am.
(00:31:41): But the industry needs to really watch it now and everybody’s running fast to get their market share. I think the big thing is the bad politics too. I had a conversation with someone yesterday and we were talking about the crap deal for the Oregon lottery and DraftKings, and that’s the type of stuff when they’re really blatant in their best interest, no real interest for society or the community. Those are the kind of deals that people will use to hang you guys. You know what I mean? I mean the sports betting industry, that’s the type of stuff. So they came to California with that real attitude, well, you know what? We’re going to shove it down your throats if you won’t do it. And they got totally humiliated. And there people forget. There was another issue on, there was another, and that was the tribes. But once the sports betting ballot initiative qualified, the tribes were like, you know what?
(00:32:37): We don’t even care about ours. We’re just see how it was like, let’s see how much pain you guys can take. And I usually describe it as two people jumping off the Empire State Building. And on the way down, the tribes are beating the shit out of the sports betting companies. And when they land, they’re like going, wow, what the hell happened to this body? Because what is more messed up than the other? So nobody was talking about the tribes. The next day everybody was talking about the sports betting company, and that’s exactly what the strategy was. The most humiliating defeat in the history of California politics. And that’s the type of thing the industry understands. They don’t understand a handout and a handshake. They only understand a punch in the face.
STEVE RUDDOCK (00:33:23): So to your earlier point, I wrote recently about IGA trade show, and I said, if you don’t understand the tribal perspective, go to the IGA trade show. Talk to any person in a gaming tribe. And you’ll hear a story like the firetruck story you told recently. I was talking to San Manuel and I was told a story that there was a local hospital that used to come and give vaccines just before tribal gaming, and they donated 25 million to that hospital. So there’s all these things that people just did. They don’t understand. It’s not just a casino company. I think that’s where they go wrong. They think the tribe is a casino company. They don’t understand it’s a community,
VICTOR ROCHA (00:34:09): And the tribes aren’t asking for their names on the buildings. You know what I mean? It’s a different mentality. They’re saying thank you. You know what I mean? We remember, and listen, I was born and raised in San Bernardino, so I used to use their clinic up there at San Manuel, and I’m very close to the tribe, the leadership. So they’ve represented, I mean, that was the shiny mansion on the hill for us, even though they weren’t rich at the time. That’s what it represented to us. So for us, it was the tribes were never supposed to be the successful. I’ve said that before, but it’s honest to God truth. And it was only meant to give them a little bit of something. And the fact that we kicked that door open, I think it’s a real testament to how hungry we were for parody.
(00:35:01): And parody means just to pay your rent, man, just to send your kids for school parity with American society, not with the winds or the adelsons, but with the Joneses. And that’s what it’s done for us. And that’s why we fight so hard. I was at my mom’s house yesterday and to see the life my mom has now compared to the life that she used to have 25 years ago. I mean, that’s what it’s all about. But I think at this point, I think we’ve done a good job of getting our message out. I think the people in our community understand who we are. And listen, that’s really the secret of, is that you can’t tell where the reservations ends and the communities will begin because the tribes do that thing with San Manuel. They do that, does that. The great does that all the tribes AWA does that. That’s what they do. But they just don’t need their names on the front of buildings like the Sacklers or the rest of these people. We don’t need that. It’s just, thank you. We appreciate it.
STEVE RUDDOCK (00:36:02): So you were talking earlier about the fight with Las Vegas and then Frank Kopp, a GA originator of the A GA, for those that don’t know. And it seems like the relationship between tribal and commercial casinos is thawed quite a bit over the years. Like Bill Miller comes to your IGA show. It started with probably with Jeff Freeman a little bit, right?
VICTOR ROCHA (00:36:28): It started with Jeff and I, yeah, Jeff and I sitting down and Barcelona, believe it or not, having PA at La Boqueria and Fark Cough was gone. And I said, listen, we have a chance here to remake what the industry is. Fairnoff was diehard anti-Indian, a hundred percent disrespectful every step of the way. You know what I mean? And then Jeff comes in and he’s a new guy. He doesn’t have the biases of Frank Old school politician, backroom, backroom deals, smoky rooms. He came in with the young guys trying to solve problems. And Chairman Stevens and I still talk about Jeff. We just have, it was amazing how this guy goes, all right, let’s fix this problem. And that started the relationship. But it started with a conversation with Jeff Freeman and I, but it really, the ice really broke with Jeff and Chairman Stevens when it turns out they’re both Wisconsin boys.
(00:37:31): They’re both Green Bay fanatics, team owners and stuff like that. So believe it or not, that’s really was the icebreaker. And now we have Bill Miller, and we have a great relationship with them. There’s a real, I think the industry learned to love us without fearing us. They learned there’s opportunity. And even in the beginning, some tribes need the help. And a lot of people, there’s a lot of opportunity in this industry. If you come in and you’re honest and you really want to help, there’s a great opportunity to help people who didn’t have anything before. And I think everyone that I talked to that works in the industry feels that same way, that there’s a real personal satisfaction and a job well done. You know what I mean? And you get to see it. Where else do you get to see Greenfield go from a field to a big gambling resort with hotel rooms and stuff like that? And so it’s been a really incredible journey and stuff like that. But yeah, the industry learned to love us. You know what I mean? So
STEVE RUDDOCK (00:38:35): One of the big topics that IGA had seen this year, I wasn’t able to get out this year. My newsletter is keeping me home bound for a little bit. I
VICTOR ROCHA (00:38:44): Subscribed.
STEVE RUDDOCK (00:38:45): Yes, I know that. Thank you for your support. But it seemed like one of the big, big topics was online. I know we’ve talked in the past about getting the tribes to be a little more open to online. It seems like that’s happening now. So I was wondering if you could just talk a little bit about what you saw at IGA, how California might play out over the next four or five years.
VICTOR ROCHA (00:39:11): Hey, listen, here’s California in a nutshell, and it’s kind of the industry as a whole, which is online gaming is going to come to California. The big clash right now is the tribes have spent 25 years of pulling themselves out of poverty. And now the name Pachanga, which is my tribe’s name, wasn’t known 30 years ago now, 25 years ago. You see it at SoFi Stadium, you see it. I went to an angel game the other day. It’s on the billboards. It’s everywhere. The tribe has done. My tribe has done an this incredible job of getting our names out to the California public. And now you have Fanduels and DraftKings. They want to come in and they want to bring in their own brand. And what that does is that’s erasure. They want to take away the tribe’s names. They want to take away what they’re, because their brand is more important to them than, so that’s where the real fundamental clashes.
(00:40:13): And I think that’s where you’re going to see it. The tribes are going, no, that’s not going to happen. Now what’s interesting, Mike Mazzio posted an article last night talking about Hard Rock and Jim Allen saying, Hey, listen, we’re not against other companies coming in and we just want a piece of it. We just want a very New Jersey attitude. Hey, we don’t mind over here. So it’s a very jersey attitude. We’re all looking at that hub and spoke model. We’re all looking at that way. But I think for the tribes, it’s about erasure. They don’t want to have their identities erased. And by the way, it isn’t about sports betting. It’s about online gambling. So sports betting is the proverbials camel’s nose under the tent. Online gaming is where the money is. We all know that. So that’s really the fundamental class that I see is that the tribes don’t want to be subservient to the brands of FanDuel and DraftKings. You know what I mean? And DraftKings and FanDuel are pretty adamant that they don’t want to be a B2B business. And the tribes are going, you’re going to be B2C. And it’s my job to convince them to be B2C, and I think that’s going to be where the clash is right now. But you know what? There’s other companies out there that does just fine. Other white label companies that’ll come in and fill in that spot. If those guys don’t want to play, somebody else will do it.
(00:41:40): But for us, Steve, it’s about erasure. It’s about our names. Why would we allow, after creating these Latin-based entities, allow our online present to be eclipsed by FanDuel and DraftKings? You know what I mean? It’s funny. I had a conversation with, what is it? Jack Pocket or Jack whatever, the fantasy company. They came to me while I was at my conference and they said, Hey, listen, we’d like to talk to you. We’d like to talk to the tribes. We’d like to get a conversation going. And I was like, well, you’re probably wondering why the tribes want to brick that side door exit. That’s because of FanDuel and DraftKings. They came in, they weren’t trustworthy. They said they were fantasy, but they were setting up. And by the way, from a business perspective, we all, it’s pretty smart. You know what I mean? But we all saw it, and the commercial guys got involved.
(00:42:34): That’s when he saw BET MGM. Now you got all these new players like fanatics that don’t have land base. You know what I mean? Trying to take the future away from the tribes. And that’s where a fundamental disagreement is. And that’s where the tribes will fight. So California, like Florida, we have an opportunity to redefine what the industry is, a new model, not a one that’s defined by Jeremy Coon and the Sports Betting Association, one that is defined by the tribes for the tribes and the people of California, not for the bottom lines of Fando or DraftKings.
STEVE RUDDOCK (00:43:10): Yeah, it’s funny because sort of what New Jersey was trying to do at the outset when they legalized online casino was it was for the hotel brands that were in Atlantic City, and they actually were doing quite well. So the existing brands were outperforming the party poker casino, the 8 8 8 casino, the European brands. That’s changed since sports betting came along. So now those brands are being dwarfed by DraftKings FanDuel. So I think it’s the same thing. It doesn’t happen immediately, but I think over time you do see that erosion of the existing land-based brand, just their reputation. I always explained it as, so when somebody says DraftKings or FanDuel, pre PASPA ruling, you said, oh, you would swear your bet on sports that you knew what it was. If somebody said to you at that same time they said MGM, you would say the movie company. Like there’s this brand disassociation. And I think that’s kind of what you’re saying with the California tribes is you built up this brand association with gaming and this resort casino brand association. You don’t want it all of a sudden be like, well, DraftKings is the better place. And then
VICTOR ROCHA (00:44:35): Look how intuitive Walmart was from Amazon. You know what I mean? And look what Amazon has done. I mean, Amazon killed Toys R Us, you know what I mean? It killed toys us now. Plus also, they were a ton of debt equity companies just smother those guys. They just robbed those guys. I mean, that giraffe had no pants. So that was a big deal. Amazon has sucked the oxygen out of the online. You immediately go to Amazon when you buy something, you’re seeing Temu and Ali Express trying to compete with them to do the same thing. But that’s kind of the same thing that the you looking gaming too. You know what I mean? We see those guys as Amazon, they want to come in. We don’t want to let them in California. We don’t have to. They try to force their way through. I always love it when all of a sudden they’s like they wrap themselves in the American flag.
(00:45:28): And it’s like they said, it’s un-American to not let us come in here and bring in our product. But we’ve, in California, the main thing, what keeps the tribes where they are is that they listen. Their ears are to the ground. They understand the people of California. Now, listen, they also have a lot of money, and they know how to get their message across. They’re very smart about this FanDuel and the DraftKings, and these guys met their match. They met it in Florida. They’re not immortal or invincible. They can get their ass whipped pretty good, by the way. I think that’s what you’re going to have. I see them coming in. I see a lot of hands in hat. You know what I mean? But as I said to someone the other day, you know what? They’re gen deflecting, but I can see their knees shaking. You know what I mean? I can see. So I think the tribes are like, why do they have to come into the market? Who says they have to come into the market? Where does it say FanDuel and DraftKings have to come into the California market? Nowhere. So that’s when they wrap themselves in the flag and saying, it’s an American. And then they bring out their I Rand and tell us, and listen, I knew Peter Drucker, so I’m not impressed. You know what I mean?
STEVE RUDDOCK (00:46:45): Victor, that sounds very familiar to the poker battles of old, it’s the exact same playbook. And I also noticed that the similarity and kind to try to sew a little bit of tribal division with getting some non-gaming tribes. So you can start saying, no, this is tribal backed. Just the playbook is the same. They
VICTOR ROCHA (00:47:09): Ran a stupid campaign in California. First of all, people, California don’t care about the homeless. They step over ‘em every single day to get their soy latte light. You know what I mean? Every single day. And what I said, they should have went for free range chickens. You know what I mean? The people in California would’ve went for free range chickens. You know what I mean? You vote for sports betting, pigs and chickens will leave cage free. The Californians will run to the ballot. They will run to the polls for that. But it was a very cynical attempt, and the people of California saw through it. There’s another thing people don’t understand is that if you look at the California elections for the last 30 years, California hate billionaires. They hate the big people that come in here and think they can buy their way into it.
(00:47:58): And especially when they’re loud and brassy, you look at Al Checky, you look at all these other billionaires that have run for the California legislature, governor, a senator and stuff. And they always lose spectacular because the people of California know bullshit when they see it. So that’s what they have. And also, listen, the tribes have an in incredible narrative in California. They have an incredible story. They’re seen everywhere. Where before you couldn’t find Patonga 30 years ago. Now you can’t avoid us. But the story isn’t those rich casino ins. The story is those Indians that have done so well and taken care of their people and their community, you know what I mean? Why can’t we be more like them? Now, that is, the narrative has changed a bunch. So that’s where the fight comes from, man. And that’s why it’s so hard and so unforgiving.
(00:48:50): You know what I mean? We went after those guys, and at this point, we’re pros. But the big thing is that we understand our battlefield. We understand California. We understand where we stand. We understand our people. So those guys can’t come in and take, and I’ve said before, listen, we could beat FanDuel and DraftKings on the back of the Saltner Brune. You know what I mean? We would whip all those guys together with one hand. So California is in no fear of the tribes are going to lose control. So now what you’re going to see is a way to redefine the industry, and that scares the industry very much so. That’s why Fanduels in California, hiring everybody, sponsoring every golf tournament, every ribbon cutting, every conference. They’re trying to buy their goodwill. But goodwill comes from action, not from advertising.
STEVE RUDDOCK (00:49:46): The way I explained it in my newsletter was they’re doing their apology tours. It’s been called, but it comes down to what happens when something’s actually on the ballot, and how do they respond to that? Do they respond with another ballot? Well, you’re leaving us out, so now we have to take action, right? Well,
VICTOR ROCHA (00:50:06): Yeah. Yeah. The tribes have been pretty clear about the direction they’re going to go. We’re going land-based first, and then we’re doing mobile. And the reason why this, and they’re not being antiquated at stuff like that, it’s because the people in California don’t really give a shit about sports betting when we look at the polling. But once you start putting some pressure on it, the numbers go down, down. So the only way that’s going to pass in California is if everybody agrees, if all the leadership, and if you saw in the campaign, the tribes ran an amazing campaign. They had the governor, all the Republicans, the Republican Party of California, all two people, the Democratic Party of California, all those thousands supporting the tribes, the legislators, the communities, you know what I mean? The only ones that didn’t do it were the poker clubs, their little communities and stuff like that.
(00:51:00): So it was amazing what they’ve done. That’s what it’s going to look like going forward with support. The thing is, is that the fanduels and the draftings and the beta MGMs, they can’t play their game because all the tribes will go, well, you know what? We’ll just take our ball. We’ll wait right now. So the open secret right now, it still has to be negotiated. There’s a lot of things that can go wrong. But what we’re looking at right now is 2026 for mobile. We still have to get there. We still have to agree what that’s going to, excuse me for land base retail, my bad. And then two years later, bring that into retail. And the mentality and the thinking is we bring in retail and then we say, okay, we’ve did it. We’ve done this. Now trust us to do mobile. Here’s what we’ll do.
(00:51:50): The money will go to free range chickens, and this is what we’re going to do. So it’s a very slower, methodical process, which goes against everything the FanDuel and DraftKings believe in, which is run fast and break things. So the tribes have laid down the rules, whether these guys can listen. I think they’ve learned their lesson, but you know what? There’s so much money involved, and there’s so many stupid people in this industry that just see the money, and they get excited as our two idiot friends who came and tried to right after the victory go, we’re going to show the Indians how to do sports betting. I mean, the most patronizing, ignorant attempt I’ve ever seen in my life. And by the way, it was so much fun just tearing those guys apart on Twitter every single day. If they weren’t moronic, if they weren’t as dumb as I said they were, then they would’ve walked in with their head high.
(00:52:50): But everything about that was a grift. And when I started getting phone calls, they were trying to raise money, which was not what they said they were doing. So the tribe squashed that thing, and it was hysterical. That was so much fun. I enjoyed it when I put on my shoes and I see them still in the treads of my shoe. What? I mean, I just smile. I just smile. So it can happen in California, but it’s got to be cautious, and it’s not going to be what the sports betting association wants, not what the idea group wants, not what the consultancy and the trade group want. It’s going to be what the tribes want and what the people of California want. And that’s a very important component that not a lot of people talk about is the people of California.
STEVE RUDDOCK (00:53:38): That second action, I didn’t even want to cover it. That’s how laughable I thought it was when I first saw it. And I think I just went, I said, let me just see what Victor Rocha Roche is saying on Twitter. I went over and you had some great line about it. I was like, yeah, this sums it up.
VICTOR ROCHA (00:53:55): I got to use my favorite word curb stomp, which is a word that I really love, which I learned in Jersey, by the way, Philly,
STEVE RUDDOCK (00:54:04): That’s definitely an East Coast word.
VICTOR ROCHA (00:54:07): But the funny thing was that everybody saw how moronic it was. And yet, and I think that goes why we’re talking about this is that just, it shows with so much money. There’s just so many people that have unrealistic expectations or timelines. You know what I mean? And it’s, what is it, Q? Trust the plan. That’s what we say. Trust the plan. And JFK junior’s coming back, by the way, or J-F-J-F-K, which Robert Kennedy, one of ‘em, we’re coming back. I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah. Trust the plan. That’s what we say. Trust a plan.
STEVE RUDDOCK (00:54:42): Yeah. Part of that, I think, is the affiliate model that’s in the industry where they’re the ones covering the news. And number one, affiliates want every state open as fast as possible. Does not matter how awful it is. Let’s get as many operators in as we can so we can get 10 bonuses instead of one. And then also, there’s a lot of writers in the industry that aren’t really industry people. They came over during this boom, and you got to justify your paycheck at some point. You got to say, here’s something important to write about. I’m looking at it going, I don’t even want to write this. I know it’s a joke, but they’re looking at it as, oh, I can get 10 articles
VICTOR ROCHA (00:55:28): Out of this. Well, listen, I have to go back to El Frank Baum, man. You know what I mean? I look at media sometimes as the enemy, and there are times that I’ve gone on attack and everybody knows I’m kind of like a cage dog. I’ll bite people and attack, but I’ve taken swipes at Dustin even. You know what I mean? Because I thought, I feel that sometimes you guys can be players. You know what I mean? You’re not passive observers, you’re active players. So it kind of makes you fair game sometimes. You know what I mean? But Jill Dorson, when Jill Dorson came to me, she says, Hey, listen, I’m a new writer. I’m with this thing. And I was like, Hey, good for you. Don’t call me. Leave me alone. I don’t want to know you. Stay away from me. And then I read her article and I was like, oh, this person’s a journalist.
(00:56:19): So someone’s trying to bring a journalistic integrity into it. And so I called her back and I said, okay, listen, we’ll talk. I see that you’re actually a writer. You a journalist. And so for me, I can see the people who are honest as somebody who reads everything every day like you, Steve and Dustin, and Jill Dorson does a phenomenal job. And she didn’t come in from the industry. She’s not a player. But the other thing is that you have players that come into the industry that aren’t writers, and writers who aren’t players coming into the industry. So that’s what makes the industry. But you can tell the people who want to tell the story, and I think the industry does self a service because especially with the death of the newspaper, you guys are filling an important role. I posted an article last night about gambling.com, talking about their role and filling sports betting content and Achi and maybe even AP or somebody like that. So guys have filled up this void that has been created with the death of the modern newspaper and where the internet was supposed to give everybody a free voice. It killed the one thing that was talking about freedom for the longest time. So now we have to readjust how we get our messages and how we get the truth. So you guys have, not everybody that writes for an affiliate is a hack. You know what I mean? There’s a lot of good writers out there. Yeah,
STEVE RUDDOCK (00:57:44): Yeah. There’s really, really talented writers. There’s really good, like Matt Cred is another one who just,
VICTOR ROCHA (00:57:50): Matt’s phenomenal,
STEVE RUDDOCK (00:57:51): Goes right to the story’s a sweetheart source. But having worked in the affiliate industry since 2008, nine ish, yeah, there’s a lot of thumb on the scale. There’s a lot of that.
VICTOR ROCHA (00:58:06): Listen, that’s why I brought up the L Frank Baum story, man. You know what I mean? And sometimes we see the media as, but listen, that’s why I have pga.net. You know what I mean? People read patonga.net. Tribes read, if you look at my Twitter following, it’s the Washington Post, wall Street Journal, New York Times. So I have this voice to the media that’s really outsized for, I’ve curated for 25 years. So when I say something, if I want to get a message out there, the media is there to, it isn’t just the trade media. I had a conversation yesterday with David Chen from the New York Times. What I mean? So we’ve learned the internet out there, even though there’s still voices out there that want to hear the truth, there’s still people out there that want to hear. The truth is not everybody’s going to go to M-S-N-B-C or Fox News to be in their own little warm bubble.
(00:59:02): Some of us want to find the truth, and I think that’s where the internet is really still has value and potentials finding those people who out there who want to, I don’t know. The paradigm has shifted, brother. You know what I mean? Media has a different role, I think, especially with the Trump world, the way they’ve really pushed suspicion of media and honesty and integrity for their own purposes and stuff like that. But I think the media will find its way the truth finds its way. What? I mean, this creates an opportunity. So for me, pga.net has always been to find the truth and to share the truth as much as I can. My job is, I’m not a journalist, nor have I ever claimed to be a journalist. Many people have said I am, but I’m a guitar player and I am. I’m a political wonk. I’m a nerd. I’m a political nerd.
STEVE RUDDOCK (00:59:59): Alright, so before I let you go here, let’s talk about those guitars behind you. Oh man. See a ukulele?
VICTOR ROCHA (01:00:05): That’s a mandolin.
STEVE RUDDOCK (01:00:06): Oh, mandolin. Okay. The corner
VICTOR ROCHA (01:00:08): Of kids. This one right above me, this is a guitar called Motor Ave. If you watch Queen of the Stone Age, that’s what Josh plays and they’re a custom guitar. The Luther is a really good friend of mine. He was repairing. As soon as I started making money, I bought guitars. You know what I mean? I tell people it’s amazing things you can afford when he quit doing drugs. So there you go. I don’t need a chip. There’s my chips right there, back there behind me. So yeah, I love guitars, man. I like to play ‘em. I like to listen to ‘em. I think they’re beautiful. They hang on the wall. And by the way, this is my office space, so they don’t really hang inside my office at my home. My wife is like, nah, keep ‘em in the back. That’s where you belong. Yeah.
STEVE RUDDOCK (01:00:51): My son’s been playing for about eight years now. He started young and
VICTOR ROCHA (01:00:55): Yeah, I have about 40, I don’t know, maybe more guitarists. Maybe a lot. A lot. Yeah.
STEVE RUDDOCK (01:01:04): It’s funny. So some guitar players, they have one or two, like an acoustic and an electric and that’s it.
VICTOR ROCHA (01:01:09): Those are called broke musicians. Every guitar would want a hundred if they could.
STEVE RUDDOCK (01:01:14): So one of my industry friends, if he gets a new guitar, he sells the previous one. So he keeps upgrading it to it’s one now that I wouldn’t even want to touch because my dad, I don’t want to break it. You
VICTOR ROCHA (01:01:26): Think there’s a mentality too? I think a really a to Murillo of Rage Against the Machine said he got his guitar. He’s like, this is my guitar. This is my amp. Whatever I can make through this sound, this is going to be me. So it’s definitely a philosophy. Listen, when I was 13 years old, I walked into a music store and I said, if I could have all these guitars on the wall, I would be happy. And I was right. So it comes back from being a kid, man. It really goes that far back of just loving guitars. I mean, the orange guitar is a Grech 61 20 is, which like Brian Setzer from The Stray Cats play, and I got three 30 fives. I got Les Paul like Jimmy Page, and so it’s a boomer thing, man. It’s a boomer thing.
STEVE RUDDOCK (01:02:13): Yeah. My son’s first big purchase ever. I think he was maybe 11 or 12, was a guitar. He used his Christmas money and we actually going in to buy his brother some symbols for his drum kit. Oh, wow. And he said, you just playing the guitars at the place. And he’s like, I really like this one. I really like the way it sounds. And I’m like, well, you have Christmas money if you want to get it. He was crying when he was buying it. It was a big purchase, and he
VICTOR ROCHA (01:02:42): Was,
(01:02:44): It’s a big deal. It’s a big deal. I actually bought my high school guitar, which has gone many years ago, but I bought a duplicate of it, which was an ivanez lawsuit model S Paul, and your first good guitar. I mean, it changes your life and especially if you struggle to be and it’s something you want, and when you finally get there, it’s a big payoff. It takes a lot of work to be a musician, and it’s the ability to express yourself and fulfill melancholy, to play something in a minor chord, or if you’re happy to play a major or you can actually have those type of responses from the musical instrument, unlike anything I ever had. I’m sure shooting a gun, a machine gun is really fun, but it seems only one emotion where the guitar is where you could get a lot of emotions at it.
STEVE RUDDOCK (01:03:34): Yeah, it is funny. He’s got my dad’s old guitar, so he got a couple of very nice guitars, but he still goes to the one he bought. Not his first one, it’s the one he bought. That’s the one that’s in his room. The other ones are downstairs.
VICTOR ROCHA (01:03:51): Yeah, it’s funny. I can’t get my kid into it. He’s into iPads and stuff like that. But I come in here every night and I play guitar. I come in here and play. I got synthesized. It’s just something that I really enjoy for myself, and I’ve created a really safe space. Coffee and guitars. I mean, what’s better than that? How much? Yeah. And I got a great wife that understood that, listen, this is how I’m going to keep him home. And if he has too many guitars, he won’t be able to go anywhere. So I also have a wonderful wife and partner who allows me to, although it’s getting harder to justify more guitars, you know what I mean? So I think the last ones I got were like satar guitars and baritone guitars. I got a Grech, a Starfire, which is acoustic and hollow. So they’re all different. But at this point I’m really, there’s nothing I need. I’m really happy. I like anything with strings now, so I don’t even have bring it. Oh yeah. So even I got everything here, man. I got musical instruments and anything to make noise and just if you’re fortunate enough to be in a place where you can do what you want, this is how I choose to live my life and find my happiness in a room full of musical instruments.
STEVE RUDDOCK (01:05:12): Yeah, I look at where my office is. I’m looking at a wall of books. I have old gambling books and old martial arts books. So things that I just like seeing that history of it. And
VICTOR ROCHA (01:05:23): I have that in the other room. I have that in the other room. I have so many books that I still collect. Even in the age of the internet, I still buy books. I just love that tangible. I don’t know if it’s an age thing, you know what I mean? I just love that tactile. I still love bookstores and use bookstores and record stores and all those beautiful tactile experiences. And for all the same reason for the joy of discovery. What am I going to find new here? It’s something about walking into a bookstore and finding a new book that you wouldn’t have found on the internet. You see it and there it is. And oh my God, that reminds me. So I am still of that era. I like those tactile experiences.
STEVE RUDDOCK (01:06:07): I’m the same way. There’s a new book I will read on my iPad if somebody releases something new or it’s a novel, I’ll read it on my iPad. But anything where it is almost like I need to look at it too, I need to see the books. I own those. Those are mine. I can’t do that with the iPad.
VICTOR ROCHA (01:06:25): The iPad’s great for airplanes. When I’m traveling, I’ll download a book and that’s when it’s phenomenal when I’m traveling, but I still love books and collect them, and I have a shelf filled with the classics and stuff in my office and the next room and stuff like that too. So I guess this is the model that, this is the final model of me, I guess this is it, the final rendition.
STEVE RUDDOCK (01:06:54): No, you always change. As long as you stay curious, you’ll always change. That’s why
VICTOR ROCHA (01:06:58): I look at, you know what, yeah, I mean the last 10 years of my life have been incredible. I’ve really made an effort to bring the tribes to Europe and open up the global model. And what maybe some people know and don’t know is I’m the conference chairman for the Indie Gaming Association. I also write the content on Native American content, excuse me, for G two E and also for ICE in Barcelona coming up too. So the fact that I have this incredible gig where I get to push the Native American voice and the narrative globally even, it has just been incredible. So you couldn’t have known 12 years ago that I would be where I am, and it’s pretty incredible to go to Europe and everybody knows who I am and Running Point. They see me as that doorway for 40 billion industry, either through igo or patonga.net and in my role. So yeah, as long as you keep learning and your brain’s open, you keep growing. And I’m all about that. I’m all about it.
STEVE RUDDOCK (01:08:06): That’s a great place to end this chat. Victor, I really appreciate you coming on. This was great.
VICTOR ROCHA (01:08:13): I hope you guys got something useful. There was a lot there. I think you, I owe you a therapy session, so I didn’t see my therapist this week. I’ll see him next week, so thank you. I appreciate that. He will. Thank you Also, Steve, thanks a lot. And listen man, great job. You know what I mean? I read the newsletter every day. You found a place in the industry to bring, as you know, I think we’re on the same page of finding the truth and honesty. There’s a real place in this industry, and it was refreshing to hear you talk about the truth as we see it and where affiliates are. And sometimes I don’t see them as my friends. I see them as my enemies, but I don’t see the people who write ‘em as the enemies. Because I know most of you guys, and I think you guys are all good guys, but I also know your role is to reinforce that model. But you know what? You guys are just fine. You know what I mean? You guys are fine. Keep doing what you want. You know what I mean?
STEVE RUDDOCK (01:09:17): I appreciate you, Victor. Thank you.
VICTOR ROCHA (01:09:19): Alright brother. Thanks everyone.
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