Abstract
Following the murder of George Floyd in the USA by police, on 25 May 2020, Black Lives Matter protests and demonstrations were held all over Italy. Italians and primarily Black Italians occupied streets and squares not just to condemn what happened in the USA but to say that Italy is not immune to racism. Acknowledging that diverse forms of racism operate in Italy, they aimed to assert that, starting from citizenship rights and recognition, Black people in Italy experience denials and violations on a daily basis. 1 This was probably the most evident proof of the sense of community surfacing among Black Italians. In recent years, young Black Italian people have started using social media (especially Instagram) to open up about their stories and experiences. By doing this, they have started reflecting on their multicultural identities. These are not fixed or rooted in a specific place but are complex, multifaceted and mobile.
I had the opportunity to discuss these issues with Emmanuelle Maréchal, the co-creator of Blackcoffee Podcast which was first released during the pandemic, in May 2020. Together with Ariam Tekle, an Eritrean-Italian director born and raised in Milan, they created a podcast to freely talk about Blackness in Italy. Emmanuelle and Ariam decided to interview Black Italians who would narrate their stories to counter what is generally published in the Italian press. Their main purpose is to show that Black identities have many facets. 2
Emmanuelle is French Cameroonian. She was born in Cameroon and she grew up in France, in Bordeaux. She moved to Bologna, Italy, to study at the University of Bologna. Later she also lived in Munich and London. While growing up, both Emmanuelle and I mainly navigated white spaces. Thus, we had somehow to learn what it means to be Black in contexts where we had to deal with everyday racism. These shared experiences of discrimination have motivated us to actively engage with social issues that affect Black people in Italy today. They have also led us to appreciate the importance of Black Italians’ reclamation of visibility, and their struggles to create and cultivate safe spaces.
This interview is organized into two sections. In the first section, Emmanuelle talks about her upbringing in France and she describes her travelling experiences. This allowed us to reflect on Black Europe and the African Diaspora, focusing in particular on the differences and similarities – from citizenship laws to the visibility of Black people – between France, Italy, the UK and Germany. The second part concerns the role of languages. It highlights how languages constantly permeate discussions about identities, especially for people on the move, those affected by migration who move from place to place. Emmanuelle's first language is French, she is fluent in Italian and English, she learnt German, which she now says she has forgotten, and she has made an effort to retrieve her Cameroonian family's native language.
First of all, I am 34 and I was born in Douala, in Cameroon. I arrived in France with a Cameroonian passport when I was three. I got citizenship simply because my father, the person who has been my mother's partner since I was little, is a white Frenchman. When he adopted me as his daughter, I took citizenship, so for me obtaining citizenship was not as complicated as, for example, it was for my mum, or for my uncles and my aunts. This is because I had the privilege of having a French father. […] In France we have a course called Civics, in which we are taught that when you are born in France or have French citizenship certain things do not happen. There is a kind of brainwashing that prevents you from recognizing racism right away. You internalize it and you do not have the tools or the words to describe what is happening to you. [Notwithstanding this] there is one thing that made me decide that I did not want to stay in France anymore and made me feel really bad. One summer I worked as a tour guide in a 16th-century castle near Paris. The castle was visited by people from all parts of Europe, but the people who were shocked to see me there were always the French: ‘How can a Black person know the history of France?’. There was this lady who was very shocked when I told her I was from Cameroon and she said that it was not possible that I could know the history of France. […] I asked myself why, why they couldn’t understand that I could be French and Black. For me it was not such an incompatible thing. 3
I am sure many people told you that in Italy there is a completely different perception of France. Although some issues are quite well-known such as, for example, all the controversies about the national football team, in general we tend to think that in France people are more used to seeing Black nationals than they are in Italy. 4 We would not expect what you are saying. What is normally believed is that Italy, because of its more recent history of immigration and its generally neglected colonial history, is in this respect very backward. From what you say it seems that this is not the case.
There are different nuances. This is what I would like people to understand. In the sense that you can have citizenship, but they make you feel like it's a gift. You always have to be grateful that they gave it to you, that they gave you citizenship. You must always be thankful because if you had stayed in Africa you would not be able to do all this, you would not have been able to go to school. You would not have had the same opportunities. They always want you to feel infinitely grateful to France.
There is this idea that ‘we welcomed you’, there is this ‘we’ that you can never be a part of because you are Black or a migrant.
That experience as a tour guide changed my perception a lot. I was 19–20 years old then and it changed me a lot. Let's say that it burst my bubble. It was the first time. No, it wasn’t the first time, because there were constant comments about my Blackness… […]
This really is what is called ‘everyday racism’; we have to deal with it on a daily basis. In Italy these exact same things happen all the time. […] How well known do you think the experience of Black people in Italy is elsewhere in Europe? Black Italians seem to be much less visible than Black people living in other parts of Europe.
I think that for French people the idea that there are Blacks from other European countries, except for Britain, is rather unclear. I have the impression that Black Italians often do not want people to know that they are Italian. This at least is based on my experience regarding Black Italians I met not in France, but in England. Often, for example, if they are Nigerians they just speak English and they speak Italian only if they have to. So [if] you ask them: ‘Are you Italian?’ […] They always said that they were Nigerians and never introduced themselves as Italians. […]
Did they say this despite having Italian citizenship?
Some had citizenship and some did not. I believe this is an important issue. I think that the Italian system makes their sense of Italianness, let's say, bitter. I don’t have the same experience because I am French. My citizenship allows me to do certain things. People can address me with racist comments, but I am a French citizen and I have my rights. This has an impact on how you perceive and create yourself. […] Therefore you regard French identity as very strong. […] Every time I told a Black French friend of mine that many people in Italy do not have citizenship, even if they were born there, they were shocked. For us it is so natural to have French citizenship.
How did you decide to move to Italy?
Well, basically during my experience as a tour guide … At the same time, I had applied to do a year abroad in Italy. I said to myself that I would have to spend one year in Italy because I was studying Italian and it made no sense to do it only in France. I thought that I would have to spend at least one year there to get to know the culture, the people and the country better. Thus I applied to spend a year in Bologna. When I arrived there it was a bit strange […] I didn’t see any Black person and at first I was a little bit … Well, okay. Where am I?
Did you think you would see in Italy the same Black population you saw in France?
[…] I was used to going to places where either there was only one other Black person or there was absolutely no one else. […] I arrived in Italy, I went to university and I did not see any Black person … and there I started wondering how Italians perceived me since there were no other Black people. However, every time I opened my mouth people said to me: ‘Ah you are French? I love Paris’. Well, I’m not from Paris. And then: ‘Ah, your accent is so lovely’. Thus I did not hear many nasty comments about me and people did not even ask me where I ‘really’ came from. […]
Your experience looks like the typical Erasmus student experience. So, you came to Italy to do your Erasmus exchange and then you decided to stay longer?
Exactly: in the end I stayed five years.
Then did you go back to France, before returning to Italy, or did you stay in Italy?
No, I went to work in Germany […] I went to work in Germany and let's say that in Germany […] I was part of a very small circle of expats. I went there to work, I did not have any particular interest in the country itself, I didn’t … Anyway, I wasn’t in Berlin. I was in Munich which is a completely different place. There, too, I didn’t see any Black person, even fewer than in Italy. I did not see any, zero. In fact, the only Black people I used to see were my French colleagues. […] I was also surprised when they told me they went there because in France they had the impression they would not have the same opportunities. They wanted just to gain work experience abroad and then return to France. It was as if this experience abroad could erase their Blackness a little.
During an online event I organized at Cardiff University, you spoke of London as the place where you discovered your Blackness. […] I would like to understand how your notion of Blackness differed in France, in Italy and in Great Britain. Is it a matter of awareness? 5
[…] When I was in France I was still growing up and evolving, let's say. I still am, but now I’m 30 years old. In France, as I said, I spent my childhood, my adolescence, my early years as a young adult. Upbringing matters a lot. As I told you, the way we, as French, perceive our Frenchness can often prevent you from realizing that what you are experiencing is racism. Sometimes you are a victim of racism, you feel bad, but you cannot voice what is happening to you because you have been somehow brainwashed. […]
From the moment I left France, I said: ‘Okay, here I don’t …’. For example, in Italy no one stopped me to ask where I really was from. I know this is a privilege, due to being French. This is why they did not ask me this question. They did not ask me this question but then I saw the way in which Black Italians were treated and I started reflecting on this. I wondered why they did not behave like this with me but they did with them. It was very strange. In France I know very well that when you are Black you are expected to do humble jobs. You see Black people doing mainly menial jobs. In Italy the same thing happens, but there Black people do humble jobs because they often do not have the documents which allow them to work legally, right? This is crazy. The first Black people I met in Italy were street vendors, the so-called vú cumprá. I have never seen anything similar in France. […] So when I was in France I was still, as I told you before, growing up. […]. When I arrived in Italy, there were just a few Black people around me. Even if I had some thoughts I didn’t think of sharing them with white people, because I had the impression that they would not understand. Then I went to Germany and things didn’t change much there, quite the contrary. Then I arrived in London and there were people who discussed Black identities. They are discussed in the press. There were events you could attend and talk about these issues. Thus, I tell myself that in London I could talk much more freely than in my country or in Italy. […] There I discovered that there are many different diasporas. In London there are not only Black British, but there are Black people who really come from all parts of the world. […] I literally discovered a new world. I realized that I had never heard those stories before. 6
Why are you now contemplating returning to Italy?
I left Italy hoping that one day I would return. Nonetheless, when I arrived in London I said to myself that maybe it would be my place. Then in November I lost my ex-boyfriend who was Italian. We had known each other for 11 years and he kept asking me when I would be back. I used to tell him: ‘I’ll be back, I will’. Well mo’, when I came to Italy for the last time to say goodbye to him, I told myself: ‘I want to come back’. It is definitely an emotional matter … But I can confide to you that in Italy I have always felt at ease. Of course, I have noticed, lately, a lot of changes. I know Italian people say a lot of things … When I was in London I never really reflected on my physical appearance […]. London is much more … I wouldn’t say open, but there are more people there who look like you. Therefore, you do not have to deal with unsettling situations that often. While in Italy maybe I have to arm myself a little in this respect.
When you say ‘to arm yourself’ does it mean being ready for what might happen, for everyday racism?
Right, right.
And how do you arm yourself, maybe you can give me some advice. [We laugh].
I don’t know, I don’t know.
How do you defend yourself?
I don’t know: you cannot really prepare yourself to face certain situations. Now I have started observing the way I react. Sometimes someone on the street insults me and I choose not to answer. It's not because I feel weak, I’m not scared but simply there are other things I prefer to focus on and I don’t need that negativity in my day. You know that with Blackcoffee we organized a festival, the Blackn[è]ss Fest. 7 I came from London to Milan. It was amazing and it made me feel very good. […] I remember a day when we all went to a restaurant and once we left, a guy passed by and said: ‘Bloody n-word’. On that occasion I chose not to answer because I was still feeling good about the event. I didn’t want to spoil that feeling by arguing with him. In my opinion it wasn’t even worth it, because he was just a poor guy, just a poor devil. Instead, maybe I would have reacted if it had been someone, let's say, someone I know, an acquaintance of mine. Most likely I would react if a friend of mine said something inappropriate. Generally speaking now this is my attitude: ‘If you are important to me, I speak to you; if you are not important, I do not. If you are a close friend, but I realize that what I am telling you does not change you at all, mo’, well, then I push you away’. I no longer have time to say to myself that it hurts me to lose that friendship. No, I don’t have time for that stuff anymore. No, I don’t.
Do you know yet when you might return to Italy?
May or June … But where are you from in Italy?
I’m from a small town called Faenza […]. It is in Emilia Romagna, as you can infer from my accent.
You know, I have of course a French accent, but sometimes people tell me that I speak Italian with an Emilian inflection.
Yes, that's possible since, while in Italy, you have spent most of your time in Bologna.
Yes, I stayed mainly there. I don’t know, I know that when I listen to the podcast I think I sound terrible [she laughs]. I don’t like my voice, even the accent, it seems more and more … I have studied Italian for many years but you always hear my French accent.
Perhaps I can hear that you are French but it is really obvious that you have an in-depth knowledge of the Italian language …
Yes, yes, but when you study a language you would like …
I know what you mean. I too would like to speak English like a native speaker but despite my studies and efforts I don’t … and in the end that's okay.
Yes, yes. You can’t erase where you come from.
Our accents contribute to telling our stories. We may like it or not, but they are a part of us.
They are a part of our personalities. But on a linguistic level a person who has studied a language for years and always speaks it with a foreign accent … I don’t know, it is frustrating.
But from the way you speak Italian people easily understand that you are fluent, you have a very large vocabulary. When I went to England for the first time, I knew very little English.
Well London, England, are a bit special. When I arrived in London I did not understand a word of what they were saying to me.
In Great Britain, from a linguistic point of view, I have always lived in two distinct realities: the university environment and the world outside the university. I can sometimes use terms that some British people are not familiar with but …
I understand what you mean because I too have experienced it, both in Italy and in England. Then if you add that accents change from region to region and sometimes they use different words …
We could ask ourselves what does it mean to know a language …
I have always studied Italian literature and I was used to reading Italian newspapers. When I arrived in Italy, I spoke in a certain way, using a certain vocabulary. My Italian housemates always made fun of me and said that I spoke 18th-century Italian. That was what I was studying. [We laugh] They found it odd that I knew some 18th-century words but then I couldn't say ‘fork’, ‘armchair’ in Italian. I always had to use periphrases to explain the simplest things.
I think it's very interesting, it's a matter of linguistic varieties and registers. […]
When I arrived in England I thought I knew English well. In Germany, I often had to write in English for work. I arrived in London and I didn’t understand anything, nothing.
We are often used to reading and writing in English, but not to really speaking it.
The work environment really scared me. Sometimes during a meeting they said something and I pretended to understand, because when I asked people to repeat what they had just said they would repeat it exactly in the same way, only louder. I’m not deaf, I just didn’t understand what they were saying. I think this is related to the fact that many English people only speak their native language. This is why they find it difficult to explain things to those who do not understand the language well.
Did you find the same monolingualism in Italy? For example, there are not many Italians who are fluent in English.
I do not know. It's true many Italians don’t speak English well, but I think it's different there. In Italy, besides the Italian language, there are dialects. They are different languages. Perhaps this is why there is the awareness that those who come from another place may not understand.
From what you have told me, you seem to have a travelling mindset. Do you like to travel? Do you like to move from place to place?
Yes, I like to travel, I like to change environments and try to understand them. When I went to Germany, for example, I didn’t have a particular interest in German culture. I’ve always studied Latin languages, what the hell was I going to do in Germany? As I said, I had no particular affinity for German culture, but then I struck up a friendship with some Germans. I think they really love their culture, their language, especially those from Bavaria. They speak their own dialects. When I told my friends that I wanted to learn their language better they started to speak with me only in German. I told them to give me some time [she laughs], but I was glad they tried to involve me. They wanted to show me how beautiful their language was, how beautiful their culture was. They were very welcoming.
Do you often visit Cameroon?
I haven’t been there for a long time now. I visited it last time 12 years ago and then I never went back. On that occasion I stayed for two months. Then I never went back. You know what? My mother always scares me. It makes me fear that returning alone could be dangerous. She tells me some absurd and crazy stories. I would like to go back, I would like to go back but every time she discourages me.
What does she tell you? Let's see if what she says to you corresponds with what I have been told about Tanzania, my country of birth. Does she tell you that someone could poison you and that you shouldn’t visit alone the homes of people you don’t know well?
Correct! […] Furthermore, there I am perceived as almost white. They understand that you are not from there. Because of the way you move, the way you do things, they understand that you are not from there, that you are European. Therefore, they treat you differently. […] Many languages are spoken in Cameroon. I understand only … let's say 25% of the language spoken in my hometown. I don’t understand it well, I only remember my grandmother talking to me when I was a child. My mum never spoke to me in her native language. She only uses it when she is angry or when she is super happy.
Otherwise does she only speak to you in French?
Exactly. Therefore, I do not have a good command of the language. I understand something, but I am ashamed to speak it. My mum made me feel ashamed. She did everything she could to discourage me from learning the language. Every time I tried to speak it, she made fun of me and asked me why I wanted to learn it since no one speaks it. For me, that was not the point. My mother was not very clear-headed in that respect. She repeated to me that I should only learn languages that are useful. For me it was a way to get closer to her native culture and better appreciate people. By speaking a language, you can understand people and their outlook. Maybe I could understand my mum better. [We laugh] I could understand her better because even when she speaks French her own way of thinking emerges. If I had a better mastery of the language, maybe I could understand why she thinks the way she does. I shouldn’t always have to ask myself what is behind her way of seeing things which often seems completely alien to me.
That's so true. Through languages we can also appreciate people's way of thinking.
Yes, sometimes focusing on the expressions people use you can understand their outlook a little. I bought a book to learn the language. I found a book to learn it on my own. What should I do if no one wants to talk to me? [She laughs] I discovered that it is a very poetic language.
When you were in Cameroon, did they speak to you in French?
Yes, they all spoke to me in French. My grandmother sometimes tried to speak to me in her native language but, whenever I understood, I always answered her in French. However, I told my grandmother to keep talking to me in her native language. She doesn’t have a good command of French. I did not want her to struggle on my account. Oh well my grandmother is over 80 years old. I could never expect her to improve her French for me. It should be the opposite. I know that she is glad to see that I am trying to learn her native language.
You love travelling and I wonder if the notion of ‘home’ is relevant to you. Where do you feel at home?
[…] France is always my country. I’m French but I probably won’t tell you that it is my home. It is always a pleasure for me to return to Bordeaux or even to the region my father is from. Nonetheless I don’t really feel at home. […] Maybe when I’m in Italy I have more of that sense of familiarity, that sense of home. I do not know. Since I first arrived there, I have always been at ease. Every time I return to Italy, I always feel like ‘I’m back home’.
